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Thread: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

  1. #1
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    Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    Hello Creative Card users, I recently got a SoundBlaster Live! 24-Bit and a 5.1 surround sound. It is interesting about the CMSS 3D feature, but I was curious about this question.

    Is there any way I can convert my MP3's to 5.1 Surround Sound?

    Thanks
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:53 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    I cannot begin to answer to your question.
    Not because there is something wrong with it but beacuse there is such an incredibly huge amount of ways to do 5.1 conversion, that i could never tell u about them all.
    There are thousands of ways, many of them completely free of charge, and it all depends on what kind of 5.1 upmixing u want to do.
    Try to be more specific and i would try to point u out to the better ones.
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    Thank you for your response, although I am so new to the 5.1 technology, this is my question: How many kinds of 5.1 upmixing are there? What is the best one you recommend? What do you use for 5.1 upmixing?
    Thank you.
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    I use several ways, several apps, to create 6-channels files, so it would be to long for me to explain them all. Besides, there is a lot of information on the net on how to create sourround sound audio files, try for example http://www.doom9.org. They have a forum dedicated to audio encoding, along with some guides on "how to" for multichannel sound.
    But just to help you not get overwhelmed and confused with all the info outthere, there are some basics that u should know:

    UPMIXING: means taking a "X number of channels" file to a "Y number of channels" file where Y > X.
    This means that is a basic creation of a new audio file from from an existing audio file (source) in wich the new file has more channels than the source file. Now, the way of adding those extra channels is in what the upmixing techniques diverge.
    And DONWMIXING means the exact opposite.

    5.1: means 5 full range channels (20 to 20.000 Hz) plus 1 low frequency channels (1 to 120 khz). This .1 channel carries basically base sounds that add up an extra punch to the base information in the audio. Since they´re low frequency sounds, it´s called LFE (Low requency Effects) channel.
    The .1 channel IS NOT a subwoofer channel, since the 5 full range channels carry low frequency sounds that are reproduced also by a subwoofer (if the speaker asigned to that channel has a subwoofer).
    6-channels means 6 channels whether they are 5.1 kind of files or just 6 full range channels kind of files.

    Matrix vs. Non-Matrix: a matrix-encoded audio track means that a number of X channels (for ex. 6-ch)was downmixed using a series of equations that create an Y channels file (for example 2-ch).
    That means that the 2-ch file is matrix-encoded and by applying the inverse of the downmixing matrix (what would be an upmixing matrix) u can get back a (not exactly as original but very similar) 6-ch audio file.
    Non-matrix audio files means that there is no equation applied mixing of more channels than the original.
    2-ch is NOT synonimous of matrix-encoded and 6-ch is NOT synonimous of non-matrix-encoded. For example: if
    the original file had 12 channels and u downmixed it to 6 channels by eliminating 6 others, then there is no matrix applied to the resulting 6-ch file, u just deleted 6 of the 12. On the other hand, If u create a 6-ch file where every channel is the sum of a par of channel of the original (Ch1 + Ch2 = New Ch1, Ch3 + Ch4 = New Ch2, etc.) then there is a mtrix been applied in the downmixing, wich would be "take the 6 pairs of channels from the 12-ch file and and create a single channel for each channel pair where every new channel is the sum of the 2 channels in each pair". Understanding this,u can automatically create your own matrixes.

    Dolby Prologic II, wich is the one of the most used standards for 2-ch matrix-encoded audio, uses the folloing matrix for downmixing from 6-ch (5.1) file to 2-ch file:

    <<--- Reference
    Lt = Left total
    Rt = Right total

    L = Left
    C = center
    R = Right
    SL = Surround Left
    SR = Surround Right
    LFE = Low Frequency Effects Channel

    1 = 100 %, then 0.7071 = 70,71 % (of the maximum dB), or 0.5774 = 57,74 %
    [-] means 180° degrees phase shift, then -0.8165 = 81,65 % phase-shifted 180° degrees.
    Phase shifting "shifts" the audio wave acordingly to a 360° degrees axis. If the shift is 180°degrees wide, then what was positive will become negative and viceversa. by the properties of sound physic, when 2 waves have the same starting point, length (the duration of a cycle), and therefore the same frequency (Hz = cicles per second) but opposite values (Wave A in second 15 has 12 dB and Wave B in second 15 has -12 dB) they cancel each other out: this is called "waves cancellation" property.
    When they have the values within the same "side" or "phase" (Wave A in second 15 has 12 dB and Wave B in second 15 has 6 dB) then they add their values up: 12 + 6 = 18 dB total -> The "Adding Effect" Property (not the real term, i can´t remember the technical one)
    --->>

    The 2-ch "Dolby Prologic II matrix-encoded" file:
    Lt = [L x 1] + [C x 0.7071] + [SL x -0.8165] + [SR x -0.5774]
    Rt = [R x 1] + [C x 0.7071] + [SL x 0.5774] + [SR x 0.8165]
    * Mixing the LFE in Dolby Prologic II is not recommended by Dolby.

    A decoding matrix then would try to invert the equation to recreate the 5 channels.

    Dolby Digital: it´s the DVD standard for audio. Dolby Digital can be from 1-ch up to 5.1-ch audio files, with bitrates that vary from 112 up to 640 kbps depending on the number of channels. It´s know as AC3, also as A52.

    DTS: the Digital Theater Systems compression technique. It´s a 6-channels (5.1) format. Uses bitrates of 1234kbps(for 44.1 kHz) or 768kbps or 1536kbps (for 48kHz). I don´t know if other bitrates are possible, but still is very limited in options.
    The standard Dolby Digital is 5.1-ch at 448kbps, the standard DTS is 5.1-ch at 1536kbps (basically, 3 times more space needed that a Dolby audio track, that´s why I don´t personally like it.)

    Others: AAC, OGG and MP2 are capable of multichannel encoding but as far as I know there aren´t hardware DVD-players capable of playing them (maybe for AAC but I don´t know the others). MP2 is low quality. AAC and OGG are great formats but are not used in DVDs. MP3 can be multichannel too (not a standard).

    Software:
    AC3Filter and ffdshow have customizable matrix features that allow u to create your own matrixes for decoding of AC3, DTS, AAC, OGG, and whatever other formats these Directshow filters can play. These are freeware.

    BeSweet is a program capable also of customizable matrix encoding/decoding. Freeware. Great software for many tasks, but its AC3 encoder is not so good (the only downsize). Is not a filter.

    Adobe Audition, Vegas Video, Maven3D Pro, Nero Soundtrax, Plogue Bidule are some of the products capable of creating multichannel encoding depending of your hardware some of them. These are paid software.

    BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION IN AN EASY WAY:
    the easiest, fastest way to create a 5.1-ch file is to set the the Speaker settings to 5.1, CMSS 3D to Active (or On), Surruond Mixer´s Recording Source to "What U Hear", and use the Creative Media Source® Player to record a 5.1-ch (by selecting "WAV. Multichannels" as Recording format). Remember to mute every input on the Surround Mixer BUT the Wave.
    U´ll get a 5.1 96kHz(?) 24 bit mutichannel audio file in WAv format.
    Open it with BeSweet and apply resampling (to 44.1 kHz and 16bits) and export it as 5.1 WAV.
    Then Use OGG or AAC to recompress so u´ll get a smaller file than the WAV multichannel.
    This a totally FREE-OF-CHARGE way for 6-ch upmixing.
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    Thank you very much for the time to write all that stuff down, and for teaching me all of those conversions, and all that is behind 5.1 channel conversion. Although I wanted to try the way you wrote for 5.1 channel conversion I'm afraid my Creative Media Source® Player is not capable of recording a 5.1 ch on .wav format, or I probably need some more decoders for it to work, or to get an updated version of Creative Media Source® Player. What would you recomend to do in this case?

    Thank you again very much.
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    If your CMS Player doesn´t support 5.1 recording, I don´t think an update would change that.
    It´s bad beacuse it forces u tu go to the next level, but it´s good because the next level allows u to mess around with so many options that it´s impposible not to achieve exactly what u want.

    I use to programs. Audition (from Adobe, company whose software I don´t like, but since
    Audition was formerly known as CoolEdit, created and developed by Syntrillium software
    until Adobe bought it, where gonna pass the fact that it says Adobe in its name and use it)and Sony Vegas (formerly know as Sonic Foundry Vegas Video), an excellent video editing software, beacuse combined with ASIO, it allows to record the music you´re playing (streaming recording).

    Put some pics to help u visualize.

    With Audition u can take the 2-ch MP3 file and separate it into 2 (1-ch) files.
    Original LR --> New L and New R.
    Do as follows:

    Go to Edit Waveform View (if not there yet)
    - Open the file. Let´s call it "Music.mp3". Once opened...

    - Edit --> Edit channels --> Edit Left Channel (Ctrl+L)
    - Edit --> Select Entire Wave (Ctrl+A)
    - Edit --> Copy (Ctrl+C)
    - Edit --> Paste to New (Ctrl+Shift+N)(Creates a new mono file containing the Left channel, called "Untitled.wav")
    - Save "Untitled.wav" as "Left.wav".

    - Edit --> Edit channels --> Edit Right Channel (Ctrl + R)
    - Edit --> Select Entire Wave (Ctrl + A)
    - Edit --> Copy (Ctrl + C)
    - Edit --> Paste to New (Ctrl + Shift + N)(Creates another new mono file containing the Right channel, called "Untitled (2).wav")
    - Save "Untitled (2).wav" as "Right.wav".

    - Close "Music.mp3" (u´re not gonna need it anymore).

    Go to Multitrack View.
    - Drag and drop Left to Track 1 (or wherever u want) and Right to another Track.
    - With the Hybryd Tool (Edit --> Tools --> Hybryd [R]) and using the right button,click on the wave and drag it to the beginning of the track.

    Then, go to:
    - Multichannel Encoder (Ctrl+E)
    Here, select the tracks and one at a time, slide the white dot to direct the audio to the channels u like. Then --> Export... --> Set the name and folder and Export as --> 6 individual 1-ch wave or 1 interleaved 6-ch wave. I won´t recommend WMAPro since its not a very good codec.
    With a 6-ch wave u can compress it with AAC or OGG. With 6 1-ch wave, u can use Vegas to import the 6 files and export them as Dolby Digital 5.1 (Vegas will not import a 6-ch wave).

    http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2...caps0110ep.jpg

    This is a basic way using pro tools. U can play and tweak ever option to create whatever u want. For example u can duplicate the Left.wav and Right.wav, call them SR and SL.wav and aplly effects to them, then import them to tracks in the Multitrack view to be render en the Multichannel encoder as separate SL and SR channels eith information that createswider stero fileds or more depth feeling to the 5.1 mix.
    It´s all about using and testing the software until u find what u need.

    U can aldo use Vegas to record the music your playing while enhanced with EAX. To post about this would take me too long so u should try to read vegas manual to see how to record streaming sounds from your soundboard using ASIO.
    Message Edited by wonderbra on 12-21-2005 09:47 AM
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:54 PM.

  7. #7
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    Thank you very much, but all those directions sound so pro to me. I am overwhelmed by them.

    Thank you any way, and if there is anything else you would like to tell me please feel free to do so.


  8. #8
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    stuserver,

    You should be able to do multi-channel recording using MediaSource in exactly the way Wonderbra suggested. Here's a Knowledgebase article SID4428 with the exact steps.



    Jason
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:55 PM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    Jason thank you for that link to Knowledgebase, but as I replied in my other thread, my Creative Media Source® Player doesn't support multichannel recording. In the Knowledebase it shows all the options I have in my Creative Media Source® Player, Except the WAV, Multichannel. I am probably be missing an encoder from creative. If that is the case, do you know where I can get a encoder for that WAV Multichannel recording to happen?

    By the way Jason, I am using a Creative SoundBlaster Live! 24-Bit with capabilities to 7.1 surround sound.

    Thank you
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:55 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Need Help!!! About 5.1 Music!!!

    stuserver,

    What's the version of your MediaSource application. If it's not version 3.30.21, you may want to try updating the that version from the download page. From what I remember, that option should be available but unfortunately I don't have a suitable system to try it yet. Sourcing for one now.


    Jason
    Last edited by KokChoy; 11-07-2011 at 08:55 PM.

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