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Thread: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

  1. #11
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    And I will copypaste here my answer:
    Caps is what driver wants applications to believe. OpenAL is supported by "Host OpenAL" tool that does everything in software. With crappy sound quality BTW. Old OpenAL games sound like **** compared to true hardware X-Fi.
    And no, this pressrelease it total BS. I prefer to believe my own eyes.

  2. #12
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    What do you see with your own eyes? I am not understanding you at all. The Core3D chip does everything on chip. If this were all software emulation, dont you think that the driver package would be much smaller, like ASUS and HTOmega? Those cards have software codecs for most of their functions.

  3. #13
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    I think HW ACC itself is true, unless CL is playing serious fraud.
    WTH of 'quad core' meaning if everything is handled by X-Fi MB2 ?


    If any of you want solid confirm. I know a way, though I can't do that myself as I don't buy Recon3D and will stay with my Auzen Forte.

    (Korean) http://www.parkoz.com/zboard/view.ph...o_qna&no=14893

    Title: A radical way to confirm if OpenAL/Alchemy is actually doing HW ACC

    Require: Windows Vista or 7

    Contents: The point is killing two services.
    Creative Audio Service
    Windows Audio

    It will effectively kill the SW sound engine of UAA (the standard introduced by Vista), thus kill every sound rely upon APO.
    However, native OpenAL HW ACCed sounds are not affected.


    PS. I almost forgot. Alchemy with Entertainment mod is known to do not use HW ACC (even with real CA20K1 or CA20K2 X-Fi HW), tester should use Game mod.
    Last edited by Droiyan7; 02-08-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  4. #14

    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anykeyer View Post
    And I will copypaste here my answer:
    Caps is what driver wants applications to believe. OpenAL is supported by "Host OpenAL" tool that does everything in software. With crappy sound quality BTW. Old OpenAL games sound like **** compared to true hardware X-Fi.
    And no, this pressrelease it total BS. I prefer to believe my own eyes.
    Thanks to the user BF, I was able to see what the Recon3D is all about, just by analyzing the software and driver included in the Installation Disc.

    About the card itself:

    - Recon3D does have a DSP with pre-programmed functions for the THX TruStudio and CrystalVoice.


    About the Sound Core3D quad-core processor:

    - Not quad-core at all: even the original SB Live! could process as many sound effects at the same time.
    - Design is based around the CA0110 PCI Express HD Audio controller with an embedded DSP and integrated DAC.
    - EAX is software based, as it is supported through Host OpenAL.
    - Pre-programmed DSP with as many sound effects you could find on any car stereo or home theater.


    Pros

    - Less compatibility issues, as it basically uses simple codec drivers and all EAX gaming effects are processed in software by the system's CPU.
    - Dedicated Headphone amplifier.
    - THX TruStudio surround sound effects are better than Creative's CMSS3D.
    - Hardware accelerated THX TruStudio/CrystalVoice effects.
    - Microphone enhancements by CrystalVoice.


    Cons

    - Really overpriced, not justifiable for such cheap design.
    - Average sound quality, even worse than some motherboard integrated HD Audio codecs.
    - Limited to 5.1 speakers and 96kHz, questionable for a cutting edge sound card, even if a gaming only card.
    - Sound Core3D is just a simple pre-programmed DSP.
    - No HDMI connector.
    - No hardware EAX acceleration.
    - No THX speaker calibration.
    - No hardware MIDI synthesizer.
    - No ASIO.
    - Control panel written in Microsoft .NET, loads slowly and wastes 50MB of RAM when minimized to tray.
    - No WHQL drivers.
    - Questionable dedicated headphone amp, as the integrated DAC is of poor quality.


    The included drivers are not WHQL signed and worse, are from a debug version (just open the .sys driver and you'll see it).

    Did Creative improve the software/drivers?

    No, if it has less compatibility issues or does not have any at all, is because the drivers MUST be simple, as it is just an HD Audio driver, like I've said before. Then we have the Control Panel which uses a DLL to access the registers in the embedded DSP to enable and adjust the sound enhancements.


    Is this a revolutionary sound card?

    Not a all.

    THX TruStudio Surround is the only REALLY improved feature.

    CrystalVoice enhancements have been around for years, being the hardware implementation the only improvement.



    As Creative have just released X-Fi MB2 as a retail product, you should better buy this if you DO NOT have a Creative soundcard and want THX TruStudio and EAX5.

    Curiously, X-Fi MB2 does not work with Creative cards.

    X-Fi MB2 works with ANY soundcard or HD Audio codec, although it needs some tweking for the ASUS Xonar series.



    X-Fi Titanium Features you'll be missing:

    - Hardware accelerated EAX.
    - Fully programmable DSP in Audio Creation mode.
    - Hardware MIDI Synthesizer with SoundFont support.
    - Very good sound quality for Creative designs, premium/audiophile sound quality for Auzentech/Onkyo designs.
    - THX speaker calibration.
    - DTS Connect (DTS Interactive encoder/DTS Neo:PC)
    - HDMI connector for some models.
    Last edited by daniel_k; 02-08-2012 at 09:43 PM.

  5. #15
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bagnon View Post
    I am really interested in regaining the exceptional sound precision that I had with XP and my X-Fi XtremeMusic. I know Win 7 lost DirectSound but maybe the Recon3D will provide the best surround sound in gaming for Win 7.
    -Tyler
    It is matter of Windows API not your soundcard. Since Microsoft delete whole HAL ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_abstraction_layer ) which is essential to use HW ACC(acceleration), there is no way of hell to fix that unless using workaround (e.g. using OpenAL - by native support or Alchemy with Game mode). Or replace the Windows it self.

    As long as the SW uses DirectSound with Windows Vista/7, no matter hell what soundcard you buy, HW ACC is impossible.

    XtremeMusic, Recon3D, or even if it is Captain Price 3D, the name of soundcard is really not matter.

    There are say Windows 8 sound engine will see the return of HAL, as ARM tablets need that. However, I'm afraid that 'NEW' HAL API may not compatible with 'OLD' DirectSound.

  6. #16
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmacguire View Post
    What do you see with your own eyes? I am not understanding you at all. The Core3D chip does everything on chip. If this were all software emulation, dont you think that the driver package would be much smaller, like ASUS and HTOmega? Those cards have software codecs for most of their functions.
    Applications size have nothing to do with actual hardware. Recon3D driver itself weights only 6 Mb.
    Last edited by Anykeyer; 02-08-2012 at 11:33 PM.

  7. #17
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    WOW, daniel_k is again one step ahead of everyone.

    Thanks to good explain, things are clear now.


    If I may add some additional comments.

    1. I don't think 'Hardware accelerated THX TruStudio/CrystalVoice effects' yield any practical benefit (in term of system performance, I mean).

    In the past, some sound effects like EAX HD are too heavy to CPU to take, so HW ACC can boost system performance by offloading such effect processing from CPU.

    Now, in year 2012 (the end of the world which I hope not ), Even full EAX HD 5.0 or better class 3D sound are no longer serious load if CPU has 3 or more cores.
    Proven by Codemasters racing games Colin McRae: Dirt 2 and later, those use Rapture 3D who insist that provide full SW OpenAL 3D sound for game, better than EAX HD 5.0.

    Full ultra option of Rapture 3D may cause serious performance hit on dual core CPU (someone said he got 10+ FPS drop, I personally experienced about 7 FPS drop with Core2 Duo E8400 overclocked to 3.6GHz and Radeon HD5870), but it does not make any 'visible' performance hit with quad core CPU.


    And Recon3D does not even support decent EAX HW ACC. I seriously don't think 'THX TruStudio/CrystalVoice effects' are too heavy to CPU to take.


    2. For DAC quality, it is known as SNR 102dB.

    If you don't know what is that means, let me remind some facts that Realtek ALC 889 DAC 108dB / ADC 104dB, and Realtek ALC 898 DAC 110dB / ADC 106dB.

    If someone claim that the spec of Realtek chip is meaningless, let me remind some truth that some mainboard with Realtek ALC 889 can beat my dear Auzentech Forte in RMAA loopback test.

    May proven premium quality soundcard Auzentech Forte be, it has SNR 102dB ADC which is bottleneck in RMAA loopback test. The bottleneck prevents from see actual audio quality of Forte (SNR 120dB DAC for front channel, and actual RMAA test with proper ADC record up to 116dB), and cause epic(?) defeat by 104dB ADC of Realtek 889.

    So, it is natural to think some of Realtek ALC 889 powered mainboard can beat Recon3D, which has 102dB DAC, in RMAA tested audio quality battle.

    In addition, if what I know about the Core3D (the brand of the main chipset of Recon3D) is correct, DAC/ADC of Recon3D is SOC integrated and it is NOT possible to use separated DAC IC.
    (Thus, developing premium/audiophile soundcards based Recon3D, like Auzentech/Onkyo did with X-Fi chips, is blocked by the fundamental.)


    "Really overpriced" daniel_k said, and I completely agreed.

    Like BF commented his first reply, I believe it should go to the same market segments of Xtreme audio and audigy se.
    Plz, take the meaning of this, very seriously.
    Last edited by Droiyan7; 02-08-2012 at 10:39 PM.

  8. #18
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_k View Post
    - Recon3D does have a DSP with pre-programmed functions for the THX TruStudio and CrystalVoice.
    Unlikely
    Check CTHRFX32.dll in Recon3D drivers. Its APO for both render and capture devices. Why it contains new FX nodes for new voice options like beamforming? There is no devices yet with CrystalVoice other than Recon3D. So there is no point to write software processing object for this functions if Recon3D does this in hardware. And yet it resides in driver.
    There is also indirect proof to this - Recon3D USB does not support any voice functions in XBox/PS mode. And this device indeed supports THX TS in hardware, but only thanks to Philips ARM.
    And even if THX TS is processed by some onboard DSP in Recon3D PCIe for system sounds, its clearly not the case with Alchemy or OpenAL-enabled games. Just like with any other Creative's software-based card system-wide effects temporarily disabled when positioning/mixing/effects engine embedded in Alchemy and Host OpenAL takes control.

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_k View Post
    - THX TruStudio surround sound effects are better than Creative's CMSS3D.
    Better than software CMSS, worse than hardware. As an owner of Titanium HD I can compare all 3.

  9. #19
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anykeyer View Post
    Unlikely
    Check CTHRFX32.dll in Recon3D drivers. Its APO for both render and capture devices. Why it contains new FX nodes for new voice options like beamforming? There is no devices yet with CrystalVoice other than Recon3D. So there is no point to write software processing object for this functions if Recon3D does this in hardware. And yet it resides in driver.
    There is also indirect proof to this - Recon3D USB does not support any voice functions in XBox/PS mode. And this device indeed supports THX TS in hardware, but only thanks to Philips ARM.
    And even if THX TS is processed by some onboard DSP in Recon3D PCIe for system sounds, its clearly not the case with Alchemy or OpenAL-enabled games. Just like with any other Creative's software-based card system-wide effects temporarily disabled when positioning/mixing/effects engine embedded in Alchemy and Host OpenAL takes control.
    I don't certain, but such things are maybe backup SW APO for 'hell no HAL, HW ACC is impossible' cases? like CMSS and 24bit Crystallization of Vista/7 driver of all 'real' X-Fi series.

    Those are exist on both HW and SW APO.

    If we use DS (Vista/7 only of course) or WASAPI shared mode, CMSS and 24bit Crystallization is SW APO.
    If we use OpenAL (native) or WASAPI exclusive mode, CMSS and 24bit Crystallization is HW effect.

  10. #20
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    Re: Keep Titanium HD or get Recon3D?

    Yes, there is CMSS (but no Crystalizer) APO exposed on every hardware X-Fi. Because any other effects can work with pre-mixed sound without functionality loss (Im talking about system sounds here, not games). But what if we are playing a movie with 6-channel sound on a pair of speakers? CMSS requires to have all 6 channels to work properly. And without APO in system mixer driver will only recieve 2 channels pre-mixed by basic MS algorithm.
    This does not explain necessity to have APO for beamforming and other Recon3D's exclusive stuff in driver. Unless it can not do it in hardware at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_k View Post
    Curiously, X-Fi MB2 does not work with Creative cards.

    X-Fi MB2 works with ANY soundcard or HD Audio codec, although it needs some tweking for the ASUS Xonar series.
    Does it work on creative card with UAA support working with basic MS HDA drivers?
    Last edited by Anykeyer; 02-08-2012 at 11:12 PM.

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